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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:10 pm 
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Directed advertising: Television commercials which are only sent to viewers who are likely to be interested and responsive.

Directed advertising, also known as addressable or targeted advertising, is a relatively new concept in television commercials. The idea is to have some data about who is likely to be the viewer, demographic group, geographic location, etc., and send commercials directed to that viewer. PIVI (personally identifiable viewer information) is not collected for reasons of privacy.

Directed ads should be much more interesting and less annoying to the viewer (especially if they are skip-able). They also have a much higher return on investment for the advertiser.

Many big companies are trying to roll out directed advertising systems. Navic networks (Microsoft), Google TV ads, Invidi, Canoe Ventures (cable consortium).

Three problems arise with the way these companies are trying to proceed.
1. Most viewers do not have set-top box hardware capable of collecting the data, uploading to servers for analysis, then downloading the relevant commercial files.
2. The inventory of commercial slots are owned and controlled by the broadcast networks, who are reluctant to give up anything.
3. Paying viewing customers are unlikely to want to give any data, just to receive more commercials.

I think the FOSS set-top internet-connected PC-DVR solves all these problems.
1. The internet-connected PC is an excellent platform for collecting profiling data on viewers and downloading directed advertising video files.
2. A DVR uncouples the viewer from real-time broadcast. Commercials could be added to any commercial break. The entire inventory is open and out of broadcast network control.
3. Skip-able commercials are much less annoying, especially if advertising revenue is shared with the viewer in the form of subsidized internet access, or cash in a PayPal account. Estimated advertising revenue would be $10 to $40 per month per subscriber.

The plan is to develop a FOSS system where the DVR data log could be uploaded to a server, and a program (perhaps a modification of mythcommflag) would monitor for commercial breaks to insert directed advertising. No commercials would be automatically deleted and all commercials would be skip-able by remote.

The directed advertising function (upload and download) could be turned off at any time, with loss of financial subsidy. The viewer would then be left with a nice little computer running stable DVR software.

Millions of Americans have to buy digital set-top converer boxes. Wouldn't it be great if they could get a computer (with email, web, etc.) and run DVR software free after rebate? No monthly fee (or maybe a continued monthly rebate).

I am posting here to see if I generate any discussion or interest.

Marc Allan Feldman
Director
Openivo, Inc.
www.openivo.com


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:53 am 
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Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Directed advertising: Television commercials which are only sent to viewers who are likely to be interested and responsive.



A box that monitors what i watch, so it can try to "sell better" to me.

Thats a product I would go out of my way to warn people against.

j


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:04 am 
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jayb282 wrote:
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Directed advertising: Television commercials which are only sent to viewers who are likely to be interested and responsive.



A box that monitors what i watch, so it can try to "sell better" to me.

Thats a product I would go out of my way to warn people against.

j


j,

Do you also warn people against using Google search?
They make their money by looking at what you are searching for and sending directed advertising along side your search results. They are giving you a valuable service for free in return for some information from you.

Is there an important difference?

At least with my proposed system, you can turn off data collection and directed advertising if you want to.

Marc

Marc Allan Feldman
Director
Openivo, Inc.
www.openivo.com
marc@openivo.com


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:20 pm 
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Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
Marc,
You probably should have mention what the user gets out of the deal higher up.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:01 pm 
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Location: Whittier, Ca
How the FRAK is this related to KnoppMyth? I don't appreciate my forum being used in this manner. Moved to Off Topic.


Last edited by cecil on Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 9:20 pm 
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I think most of us like DVR's because we don't want to watch ANY effin Commercials. The thing marketing weenies fail to understand is that "Less Annoying" is not the same as "Wonderfully acceptable that people will line up to receive"

Now, if you wanted to write a Myth plugin were I would get paid to identify my interests and then get paid to watch targeted commercials; Well, I might just use MythWhore. And by 'identify my interests' I mean direct questions/surveys -- I DO NOT want my system spying on me; and I DON'T CARE how much the thing says it is not Personally Identifiable.

The other problem with any FOSS DVR (including Myth) is that there is no CableCard support. Tell me you can get around that, and I'll pay attention; otherwise you're probably wasting your time...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 12:51 am 
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Since this has moved to "off-topic", I feel free to ramble a bit.
I will start with an example.

Juan and Clarissa are a couple I know in Cleveland. Juan works in construction, when he can. Clarissa works as a waitress, depending mostly on tips. Juan gives haircuts to help make ends meet. They have three kids 2, 4, and 7 and live in public housing. They would love to have a computer, but the cost for hardware and software is prohibitive. They do not have the knowledge to set up and maintain a system. They watch TV over-the-air, getting 3 or 4 watchable channels. When the digital conversion occurs, they will get nothing. They finally applied for coupons, but they are on a waiting list. They are like millions of Americans.

Suppose there was a system where they could get a computer with a FOSS DVR. Directed advertising subsidizes the cost of the computer and pays for an unlimited dial-up internet connection.

They also get email and web and become part of an online social network. The computer is part of a managed network with software support.
Financial analysis shows the system to be feasible.

I was a delegate to the Future TV Show 2009 in NY. Most of the responses I received were on the line of: "Who cares about people who watch over-the-air TV?" "Who cares about people who watch SDTV?" "Who cares about people with no internet access?"

Well, I do. I grew up watching television. I have always loved it. I loved the fact that it was free. As long as you did not mind the commercials, you could just turn it on. My parents still refuse to pay for cable or satellite.

So, Cecil asks what the FRAK this has to do with KnoppMyth (or LinHES). Well MythTV is said to be a system by developers for developers, and I have no problem with that. But I thought that Knoppmyth had a different mission. To make "Linux and MythTV installation as trivial as possible" and to bring "MythTV to the masses". Did you mean the "masses" who have a Linux box and are wondering what kind of video card to get that will be able to use VDPAU?

Frankly, I am disappointed. Directed advertising is happening. It will get integrated into sat. and cable systems. The main thing slowing it down is the broadcast networks resistance to competition for its "un-directed" commercial advertising. The return-on-investment is so good for directed advertising, it will happen faster than you think.

The question is, will the revenues of directed advertising be used to support present and future proprietary systems for greater profits for the telcos and make rich people richer? Or will it be used for the development, implementation, and maintenance of open-source computer systems for the masses.

Consider this. Who owns the patent on targeted advertising to hardware DVRs?

Regards,

Marc

Marc Allan Feldman
Founder, Openivo, Inc.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:31 am 
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Location: Perth, WA
I have mythtv to skip all ads. Why would i want an add on for ads.

If i want something new I research it and purchase accordingly. I don't want biased advertising on my mythtv box just so more companies can make billions of dollars and pay 3rd world countries to make inferior products yet sell them to us at top dollar.

Rant over.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:22 am 
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Location: Whittier, Ca
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Since this has moved to "off-topic", I feel free to ramble a bit.
I will start with an example.

Juan and Clarissa are a couple I know in Cleveland. Juan works in construction, when he can. Clarissa works as a waitress, depending mostly on tips. Juan gives haircuts to help make ends meet. They have three kids 2, 4, and 7 and live in public housing. They would love to have a computer, but the cost for hardware and software is prohibitive. They do not have the knowledge to set up and maintain a system. They watch TV over-the-air, getting 3 or 4 watchable channels. When the digital conversion occurs, they will get nothing. They finally applied for coupons, but they are on a waiting list. They are like millions of Americans.

Suppose there was a system where they could get a computer with a FOSS DVR. Directed advertising subsidizes the cost of the computer and pays for an unlimited dial-up internet connection.

They also get email and web and become part of an online social network. The computer is part of a managed network with software support.
Financial analysis shows the system to be feasible.

I was a delegate to the Future TV Show 2009 in NY. Most of the responses I received were on the line of: "Who cares about people who watch over-the-air TV?" "Who cares about people who watch SDTV?" "Who cares about people with no internet access?"

Well, I do. I grew up watching television. I have always loved it. I loved the fact that it was free. As long as you did not mind the commercials, you could just turn it on. My parents still refuse to pay for cable or satellite.
Good example. In this light, your idea makes sense. I know I care. I know people that just get TV via OTA. My goal is to make KnoppMyth/LinHES as easy as possible for anyone. I'd venture to say it is easier w/ OTA than w/ a required "cable box".
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
So, Cecil asks what the FRAK this has to do with KnoppMyth (or LinHES). Well MythTV is said to be a system by developers for developers, and I have no problem with that. But I thought that Knoppmyth had a different mission. To make "Linux and MythTV installation as trivial as possible" and to bring "MythTV to the masses". Did you mean the "masses" who have a Linux box and are wondering what kind of video card to get that will be able to use VDPAU?

Simply put, your idea has nothing to do with KnoppMyth/LinHES. The KnoppMyth > General part of the forum is for general discussions regarding KnoppMyth. You have a business in mind. I've never ever allowed posting for any kind of business that isn't directly related to KnoppMyth (KRP) on the forum. Even is user wants to sell hardware, this goes under Off Topic (period).

Yes, KnoppMyth does have a different mission. This however doesn't mean I'll allow the discussion of a commercial product that isn't related to KnoppMyth in KnoppMyth specific areas of the forum. I simply dislike off topic posts.

I mean anyone that wants to create their own HTPC.

Parts of what you want to accomplish is very easy with LinHES.

What was the purpose of bringing this discussion here? Do you think KnoppMyth/LinHES can fit into Openivo?
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Frankly, I am disappointed. Directed advertising is happening. It will get integrated into sat. and cable systems. The main thing slowing it down is the broadcast networks resistance to competition for its "un-directed" commercial advertising. The return-on-investment is so good for directed advertising, it will happen faster than you think.
Disappointed in what? The fact that this was moved to Off Topic? Disappointed in my reaction (to having my forum used for a commercial product that wasn't discussed w/ me prior to the post)?
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
The question is, will the revenues of directed advertising be used to support present and future proprietary systems for greater profits for the telcos and make rich people richer? Or will it be used for the development, implementation, and maintenance of open-source computer systems for the masses.
I think we'd obviously like an Open future.
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Consider this. Who owns the patent on targeted advertising to hardware DVRs?
I don't know, who owns it?

I see you have a target audience in mind. I don't know what you expect to get from the MythTV community or the KnoppMyth community. I think you'll find most don't care of commercials. Personally, sometimes I watch them and sometimes I don't. But I don' think I'm the target audience for your product.

Regards,

Cecil


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Cecil,
Thank you very much for your time and attention. Your forum is a wonderful resource and I hope to contribute to the discussion and support it. I have run lists and I know how careful one must be to keep out the spammers and the scammers. I also think it is important to keep things on topic. I am new here and I am still learning how to best present my ideas.

cecil wrote:
Simply put, your idea has nothing to do with KnoppMyth/LinHES. The KnoppMyth > General part of the forum is for general discussions regarding KnoppMyth. You have a business in mind. I've never ever allowed posting for any kind of business that isn't directly related to KnoppMyth (KRP) on the forum. Even is user wants to sell hardware, this goes under Off Topic (period).


I am not here to advertise anything. I do not have anything for sale at this point. I am not trying to promote a business. I am not looking for investors. I am interested in the idea, and I am interested in the feedback and discussion of others. I am considering the development of a new platform and a new community of MythTV, and FOSS users. The idea is to have a MythTV installation in a managed network implementation. There are several associated benefits of an open source managed network, including options for interfacing with social networking.

cecil wrote:
Parts of what you want to accomplish is very easy with LinHES.


In the past, I have used TiVo and proprietary Windows systems (BeyondTV and SageTV). I only have a couple months experience with MythTV, but I feel that MythTV provides the best flexibility and best community of developers. The database collected by MythTV already has most of the data required for developing a viewer profile. I think that the mythcommflag program could be modified to identify commercial breaks in close to real time to insert directed commercial ad video.

cecil wrote:
What was the purpose of bringing this discussion here? Do you think KnoppMyth/LinHES can fit into Openivo?



Yes, I think so. Right now, I have an idea, some rough early prototypes, and a few interested collaborators. It may sound corny, but I am not interested in this to make a pile of money. I want to make life better for a whole lot of people. And I want to promote two things that I love, television and internet. I am still assembling a team. I am looking for someone who knows MythTV inside and out who shares the vision of an easy and free personal television experience for the masses.

cecil wrote:
Disappointed in what? The fact that this was moved to Off Topic? Disappointed in my reaction (to having my forum used for a commercial product that wasn't discussed w/ me prior to the post)?.


I was disappointed that I was giving the impression that I am trying to sell something, when actually I am trying to discuss the use of MythTV in general, and LinHES in particular, in a new system for television programming delivery, open source, free of cost, and under the control of the viewer.

cecil wrote:
Marc Allan Feldman wrote:
Consider this. Who owns the patent on targeted advertising to hardware DVRs?
I don't know, who owns it?

Microsoft.

cecil wrote:
I see you have a target audience in mind. I don't know what you expect to get from the MythTV community or the KnoppMyth community. I think you'll find most don't care of commercials. Personally, sometimes I watch them and sometimes I don't. But I don' think I'm the target audience for your product.


Few if any here are likely customers. If Openivo is successful, it will depend on many here to continue to improve the software, to add functionality, and to adapt to new hardware. Openivo would also serve as a resource to provide financial support to the open source community, to share information and advances, and help implement upgrades and support the user community.

Best regards,

Marc

Marc Allan Feldman
Founder, Openivo, Inc.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:38 pm 
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I'm getting more of a flavor of the business case.

Back in the late 90's I remember someone giving away "Free PC's with internet access" They were pretty low-end hardware, but they included the modem, monitor, and I think a crappy printer. I apologize I can't remember who, I think it was a dial-up ISP. dial-up was king then, so I'm not insinuating anything but saying it was dial-up.

The PC had a special version of IE that allowed the ISP to monitor browsing habits and target advertising to their non-dismissable banner ads.

It had much the same altruism spin, making internet accessible to less-advantaged families.... Help to narrow the widening technology divide... (it was a problem even then.) I honestly can't comment on whether their words were honest or cynical.

That system was basically a failure.
- The ads and data collection consumed a lot of resources making the system even worse performing that its measly specs would have you believe.
- The system was buggy and flakey.
- The people who wanted ad-sponsored hardware wanted it because they CAN'T AFFORD to blow money on PC's and the kind of sh!t direct marketers tend to be hawking. In other words there's no ROI on advertising to poor people.
- so many corners were cut in producing the systems to reduce costs so there would be a hope of turning a profit, or just break even, that the systems were just crappy. see previous points.

In the long run, I forget if the advertisers pulled out first, or if the "customer" base dwindled, but the product was basically a failure. Owners of the system felt a constant slap on the face, they had ads they couldn't get rid of to remind them they couldn't afford a "real" computer. These ads were selling other products they wanted, but couldn't afford. Ultimately even the low-income users preferred to do without then deal with the constant barrage of ads.

Sorry for rambling again.
Helping the disadvantaged is Wonderful
Turning a profit is nice.
Trying to do both at the same time is just plain stupid. -- Either your heart is in the right place or it isn't. Trying to make money by taking advantage of poor people is just offensive. You model is one-step removed. You're looking to make money off the advertisers who are trying to take advantage of poor people. Rent-to-own, Checks Cashed, No Credit! No Problem!

If I were a Myth Dev, I'd be seeing if I could modify the license agreement to prevent this...


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