That's right, but then we haven't heard a peep from him since. If you scroll up, you'll see that I agreed with most of what he said, though we differ on the severity of the issues. Later, I saw on the mythtv-users list that he said he was thinking of abandoning KnoppMyth and installing MythTV manually on a generic Linux box. Maybe that's just what he did.

In any case, his comments are worth noting. I've already begun work on some of the issues he raised.

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I suppose in the end it isn't what he said, but how he said it. As well as each persons own interiptation of the words and how they were strung together.

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Girkers

If he did decide to install mythtv on some other linux distribution I would love to hear how friendly that install was, as I know even the minor quirks in knoppmyth are much better than what you run into trying to use myth on any other distro (haven't tried mythdora, but other than that I'm very confident)

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Xsecrets

I'd agree that it wasn't necessarily the points he was making, but rather the way he was making them. It's just flat-out rude to, for instance, call something "the absolute -mother- of all usability screwups" (in reference to mythtv-setup) in one of your first posts to a mailing list, regardless of whether it's true or not. It's doubly-true when, by his own admission, he didn't know which of his complaints were due to KnoppMyth, mythtv-setup, or mythfrontend.

First of all, I apologise the work people doing without earning any money...

I recently start installing Mythtv on FC4 and will restart it with knoppmyth again. I used Wilson's very good manual and had still a lot of trouble. In my opinion if want to setup a linux box at all, you need:
- a flatrate to review all the problem guides and which hardware is supported
- a lot of time
- a lot of IT-experience
- good english skills (I'm not a native speaker)

Don't jump on me, but people which are not highly motivated and need quick results should give Windows a chance...

Coming to my question, what concerns me, is a reply in the myth-users forum:
"Of course, most people will never see it at all because a PVR,
particularly MythTV, isn't really designed for live TV, and certainly
not for 5.3 hours of live TV."

When i decided for mythtv, one of the main criterias was watching live TV. Why is Mythtv not designed for TV ?

Best regards
Uwe

I am not surprised that Greenstalk left the forum. Or for that matter KnoppMyth. Almost all responses where negative. I still think that regardless of how comments or criticism is fraised here, many still take offense. I scanned back through his analysis and have no belief there was any significant rudeness intended. And I search for the line about "mother of all screwups" and found nothing. Nothing in the analysis and nothing in the posts.

I was quite obvious that a lot of time was spent on the analysis. When was the last time a complete newbie wrote down everything that was going on in his head throughout his first experience? Maybe this was the last time.

Personally I think the main factors to sticking with KnoppMyth are immediate success or the thickness of your skin. Without at least on of those you are likely to walk away. And probably walk away from MythTV too.

And furthermore, the comments about fix it yourself are just plain stupid. Most people don't have the skills to do so. Hell I know experienced system administrators that could script there way out of a paper bag.

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Chris Lopeman

brollu: you are correct. Even with KnoppMyth, doing this is not something you just jump into. You have to do your homework on what hardware works well, learn some basic Linux (I would say "a lot of Linux experience" rather than "IT experience"), and unfortunately have English skills since a lot of this stuff is in English. Even after all that it can be frustrating.

If you're not interesting in learning about Linux and doing it yourself, your best bet is going TiVo or Windows, yes.

With respect to LiveTV--LiveTV works just fine for normal viewing. It just might not survive the torture test of turning it on and leaving it on, or maybe it was related to how it was setup on his system. Maybe the upcoming updates to how LiveTV works will help with that, maybe not. There's not a "1" to the left of the decimal point.

lopemanc: I'm repeating myself, but again, it's not what he said but how he said it. Too many words, not clear enough. I'm not convinced that "a lot of time was spent on the analysis." If so, he'd have known what program was involved with what problem.



Yes, that's natural. If I'm a brand-new visitor to your house, and I say "jeez, this place is a pig sty. Don't you ever clean up? What is all this junk piled up in the corner?" what do you think your response will be? Even if I say "What a lovely house! Have you ever considered hiring a maid service?" that's not much better for a new visitor.

On the other hand, if I'm a friend and I've visited your house often, I might then have built up the ability to say "y'know, Bob, I have the name of a very good maid service." Or even better, "Hey, Bob, how about I help you build a nice set of bookshelves for those piles of books over there?"

As for the quote, it was in a different thread, but definitely in the same vein.

http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/m ... ll;#158718

In the above thread ceenvee703 linked to, our bug reporter says this:

With all that experience, I hope he jumps right into the code and fixes all the things he has a problem with, and/or comes up with a reference design for the GUI. So he really isn't just a regular nontechnical user - he is someone who, by his own admitted skillset, could dive into the code and help. He could even come up with a reference design for the GUI. I wonder why we haven't seen anything along those lines from him...

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Guess this is why my wife never lets anybody come over unless the house is clean.

But really you have just described a catch 22. Newbies can't say anything until they are old friends. Newbies wont stick around to become old friends because they are scared off when they say something.

Remember as a software developer you can't implement your vision alone...Or you end up with software that you alone can use...

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Chris Lopeman

Analogies aside, respectful behavior should be encouraged, but on the other hand we should not dismiss ideas outright because they come from someone who is disrespectful. It's sometimes easier to cultivate respectful behavior in someone than it is to find someone who is willing to report problems in detail.

And keep in mind that when you read his comments on the mythtv-users thread, you're seeing the evolution of his tone from his first post there, which some of the others on the list dismissed as trivial. Right or wrong, those initial exchanges surely shaped his later ones.

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BS It is this attitude that will keep people on Microsoft's teat. I'll wager anyone that I can install KnoppMyth on bare metal hardware faster than they can install Windows and a PVR softare on similar hardware. Installing KnoppMyth isn't that difficult. Configuring MythTV isn't that difficult. All one has to do is read the manuals. The problem is that instead of reading, he decided to write. I've ran with live TV overnight w/o it locking.

Frankly, I don't care that greenstalk left the forum... The first response to this was the place to discuss KnoppMyth is the forum not the MythTV's mailing. What did the choose to do? Continue on the mailing list. That fine's, but that will get no response from me...

Greenstalk in earlier post stated be could write scripts, so fix isn't yourself isn't a stupid response. By stating as such, you are calling me stupid. This may seem like an extreme attitude, but the statement is an accurate one. I just don't tell everyone, fix it yourself. I try to keep a level head on the forum... But I for one know what is possible when the source is out there and one is willing to roll their sleeves up.

I didn't wake up one day and produced KnoppMyth out my backside. Is is a something I worked for some time before I first released it. Remastering Knoppix, building from scratch isn't something that happened overnight. However, it was possible because the source was there and I could fix it myself (or start from scratch and build it my way).

KnoppMyth is my brainchild. I'm extremely proud of the community that has formed around it. If someone speaks ill of either, damn right they will hear what is on my mind.

I've stated it before and I'll stat it again... If you don't like KnoppMyth, you don't have to use it.

_________________
cesman

When the source is open, the possibilities are endless!

Here is where a public development forum using Bugzilla or Trac would be very useful. Rather than losing that valuable user feedback and bug detection (and prevent inappropriate public outbursts) about KnoppMyth problems (real or not), why not have a place where users could file bugs? If Greenstalk had used such a forum and filed all his/her bugs then none of this messy business would have happened.

Combine the bug tracking system with a SVN or CVS and a patch forum and it has great potential to help cesman and others find and improve the system. I think it would be a huge labor savings device.

Bugzilla/Trac allow the bug tickets to be reviewed and dispositioned as appropriate. Best of all, it is a quiet constructive forum where the users can do some *GOOD* rather than just complain. You don't HAVE to use the patches or even keep the bug tickets open. They are useful information though.

Again, it is the developers project and they can do what they choose. I am just glad that they do.

Thanks

Andrew Lynch

Not on my hardware (which was research intensly before purchase). Nobody here or for that matter anywhere has been able to get my nVidia video working under KnoppMyth. Hopefully soon. MythTv and KnoppMyth are both great, but still have a long ways to go and are not better than Windows products in every respect.


No is is not the same thing. Smart people do and say stupid things all the time. Myself amonst them.

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Chris Lopeman

Human wrote:


Personally I think the easiest and most concise way to distinguish between remotes is the total number of buttons eg grey (34? buttons) and silver (45? buttons). Even if people don't count accurately (like me) there is enough of a difference to be sure and it takes a lot less space than describing where the coloured buttons are

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